Pledging Alligence

[charliesmum]

I have a question for you all.

Back when I was in the 8th grade my English teacher, who was also my homeroom teacher* told us he didn't believe in standing up for the 'Pledge' every morning. He gave us the option, of course, but he didn't make us do it. While I don't remember his exact arguments against it, I remember being influenced by it. Probably had something to do with Vietnam or something. He was a Baby Boomer.

Then, not long after that, I read A Children's Story by James Clavell, and that really influenced me. It's a very short story about Russia** taking over America, and this teacher managing to convert an entire classroom of Kindergartners in 25 minutes because, while they teach us how to do the pledge, they never explain what it means or why we do it.

It's true. For years I said 'Pledge The Legience', because I had no idea what I was saying. And how many kids know what 'indivisible' means? And why are we offering our allegiance to a flag, anyway? What's allegiance?

And now at all of Charlie's baseball games there is that moment where the National Anthem is played, and everyone stands up with their hands on their hearts, and I stand there every time and wonder why we do this. It strikes me as a bit fascist, really. According to Eddie Izzard (shut up, I think he's brilliant) Americans and the Ancient Romans were the only ones to do that.

I mean, I like my country. I grew up here. I like that I can complain about the president without worrying that someone is going to break down my door.*** But I feel uncomfortable pledging my allegiance to it, because currently I'm not all that crazy about the direction the country is headed.

So, my questions.

To Americans: What do you think of pledging to the flag and putting your hand over your heart and all that?

To non-Americans: Is your national anthem played at all sports things? Do you have some sort of flag ceremony in school?

I'm really curious about this.
____________________________________________
*He was totally awesome, actually; a rotund, brilliant man who did magic at children's parties.

**You see kids, back in the day the Soviets were our Sworn Enemies, not the Middle East.

***For now

Comments

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Our national anthem is played when the national team plays, not for "common" games.

Portugal used to have a flag cerimony in school, but that was abolished with the military revolution that turned us into a democracy (we were a fascist state before, and I'm not saying it's a fascist thing to do, only stating historical facts).

Also, saw this on Liz Marc's friendlist. :)

[charliesmum.livejournal.com]

saw this on Liz Marc's friendlist.

Cool. Hi!

Portugal is a place I've always wanted to go. My parents went there on their honeymoon and loved it.

[eslyssa.livejournal.com]

The Australian national anthem may be played if, for example, it's an international sporting event, and we, well, won. Medal ceremonies and the like/equivalent. (I am being told by someone who actually goes to sports events that at an international game the anthem *is* played at the start, but not at a domestic fixture.)

But other than that...? I don't think so.

Personally, I think the whole "allegiance to the flag" is... well, perhaps slightly 1984-ish. Not to mention the bringing in of religion... And honestly... For something that is all about patriotism? What does it say that the Powers That Be think it is necessary for kids to learn patriotism *by rote*?? Whatever happened to holding these truths to be self-evident, and all that? I don't know. It seems it is to be an idea that if kids repeat something often enough and young enough, they'll, well, start to believe what they're saying, without thinking it through themselves. To me that sounds like brain washing, not something to be embraced by the "Land of the Free".

Um. Wow. That was a little more vitriolic than I intended. No offence and everything. I'm not American, no, but you were seeking an opinion...

[eslyssa.livejournal.com]

Actually, what Igracio is saying is fairly accurate for Australia, too, in regards to sporting events. National team, national anthem.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

And that goes for the UK too.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

USAn here.

It took me a while to get to this point, basically about eighteen, but when I say the pledge I'm not pledging allegiance to the leaders of this country. I'm promising, in my heart, to do my personal best to uphold the ideals that the country was based on. I didn't join the Army to impress Ronald Reagan or Bill Clinton: I joined the Army for several reasons, one of which was that I live in a place that has many things I thing are worth protecting.

When my children are a bit older, I'm going to try and explain that to them. I'm going to try and make the point that the flag is a symbol of hope and determination. That, I think, is entirely worth living for.

That's me, anyway.

[ligia-sis.livejournal.com]

Thank you for putting into words what I had in my head, but wasn't quite sure how to phrase it!

[susanthecurious.livejournal.com]

This seems to be much of how I believe. Also, I was born on the 4th of July, so I was raised with all things patriotic and it has always been very meaningful to me. I've always found the American commitment to freedom as one of the most important things in my life and as an influence for the world, at the moment it needs to be an inspiration to this country too for there are so many things they are getting away with that shock me, all in the defence of 'saftey'.

As to the National Anthem, my earliest memory of it comes from my father. He was bedfast from a brain tumor, but everytime they played it on some sporting thing he was watching, he would 'stand' so strait in bed with his arms to his sides. He served in WWII and his pride in his country was a great part of who he was, I would say he had far less bitterness against the country than I did for Native American issues-though he was discriminated against much more in his life for being Indian than I ever have been.

Interesting discussion,

[camwyn]

I have some issues with the Pledge of Allegiance, but they're two different varieties of issue. One of them is an old one, for me. Back in eighth grade there was a morning when the teacher forgot to run us through it, so I joked that that meant that on that day and that day only, we could run off and join the Libyan army. (Mark well the first time in decades that anybody in this country outside of the import-export business knew where the Gulf of Sidra was.) It seemed to me that a pledge that had to be renewed every single day was a pretty weak sort of thing. You were supposed to make promises and swear allegiance like that once, and renew it every so often, at least as far as I was concerned.

The other is that later, when I had graduated from college, I learned that the Pledge had come from some boys' magazine or other in the 1920s or so and had about the Sacred National Document status of an Irving Berlin song. I revere the Constitution the way I do manuscripts of sections of Scripture. The Pledge? Out of a freaking magazine. What's so special about it? Zip.

[dindin.livejournal.com]

The Star Spangled Banner was written to the tune of an old English drinking song. Does that make it any less special? God Bless America was written by Irving Berlin. Does that make it any more special? Everything comes from somewhere and is given the meaning we assign it.

[camwyn]

Yes, but God Bless America isn't presented as being equal to the Constitution in terms of OH MY GOD NATIONAL DOCUMENTARY FOUNDATIONAL IMPORTANCE. As far as the Star Spangled Banner goes, the tradition of recycling old tunes for new purposes is as old as the Christian church's tradition of music; everybody, secular or religious, does that and I see no harm in it.

Saying that something that got written to keep little kids in line during some Red scare is as Fundamentally Important To Being An American as the Constitution? Not the same thing at all.

I'd be happier if they promoted patriotism by making kids recite the Preamble to the Constitution every morning. That is foundational to the republic for which the flag stands.

[camwyn]

.... er. The recycling tunes thing is as old as anything, not just the Church's traditions- sorry, I was remembering being eleven years old and suddenly realizing that roughly half the songs we sang at Mass could be sung to the same tunes whether they were written that way or not. My apologies.

[dindin.livejournal.com]

Whoa, deep breath there sunshine. Can you have a discussion about this without flying off the handle? It's not your journal, nor mine.

Who says that the Pledge of Allegiance is equal to the Constitution? That's not my impression of how the Pledge is presented. And the Pledge wasn't written to keep kids in line during the red scare - you just said it came out of some magazine in 1928 if I recall your first comment. "Under G-d" was added during the red scare, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that it was institutionalized in classrooms during the red scare.

To be honest, I coudn't even tell you the last time I heard the Pledge. I hear the Star Spangled Banner; I haven't heard the Pledge in years.

Would we all be better off if kids knew more about the consitution? Sure. I don't dispute that. But that wasn't the question.

[camwyn]

... that wasn't flying off the handle. I'm sorry if it sounded that way; I tend to be a little prone towards exaggerated language at times. My apologies.

My general impression of the Pledge of Allegiance tends to be colored by the fact that very few other documents children are made to memorize become the subject of lawsuits. People get sufficiently angry about people who don't want their children to say the Pledge that you would think they were outright disrespecting the Constitution or the country, or what have you. It's more important, it seems, that children get up and correctly recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day than it is for them to know from memory what's in the Bill of Rights, or what's in the Preamble. That's what upsets me: you will promise to be loyal to this symbol is part of the school day, while you will know what this symbol genuinely means gets skipped over.

As far as Red scares, they had them in plenty in the early part of the twentieth century, and the one I was thinking of ran from about 1917 to 1921ish. I don't remember when the Pledge was written, but I think it was in response to that particular wave of fear of Bolsheviks.

Basically, it upsets me that a document that was probably written in fear is something that children have to memorize and recite, and that people go to federal court over the right to say or not to say, whereas that which it is supposed to protect is scarcely presented at all for children's attention.

[dindin.livejournal.com]

*shrug* People get uppity. It's what they do. I guess to me that doesn't make the thing itself wrong, just because someone is bastardizing the thing. It's like people who decry religion in the name of those who do horrible things in the name of religion. The fact that these people do these things doesn't make religion in itself bad, it makes it a thing that can be misused.

I'm fairly ambivalent about the Pledge. I don't think it's necessary, but I don't think it's harmful. I think it can be misused, but I don't think that's a necessarily a reason to get rid of it. I think it's a reason to teach our children history and critical thinking skills, and how to separate symbols from the things which they represent.

I hear your point about the Constitution, but it's just not an either/or situation. It's not like by getting rid of the Pledge, schools are going to automatically subsitute it with other important documents. And what about Charlie's baseball games? Isn't baseball our "National Pasttime"? Is there a better place to pay respect to a symbol than at a symbolic event?

[camwyn]

Oh, I'm good with the national anthem at sporting events- I never had any objection to that. Although I do sort of wish sometimes that when Francis Scott Key picked the tune, he'd picked something a little more singable. Half the anthem's outside my vocal range. (I have to wonder just how the drunks in England managed the original drinking song set to that tune!)

[dindin.livejournal.com]

(I have to wonder just how the drunks in England managed the original drinking song set to that tune!)


Who says they did? They were drunk! :D

[camwyn]

"You sounded GREAT last night, man. Totally. Those high notes? BRILLIANT."

"Did I? I can't for the life of me remember."

"GENIUS, I'm telling you. Teach me to sing like that?"

"The next time both of us have that much ale in our stomachs, remind me and I"ll be glad to."

"Splendid."

[dindin.livejournal.com]

I have no problems in theory saying the Pledge of Allegiance. Regardless of my problems with this country's leadership, it's my country and I will pledge my allegiance to her.

I do have a problem with the change that was made to the Pledge back in the 1950's during the Cold War to damn those Pinko Commies. I'll Pledge my Allegiance to one nation, indivisable - it doesn't need to be "under G-d". It wasn't when the Pledge was written, and it shouldn't be now.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

One of my friends says that the pledge should be said, but change the name of the deity the country is under. Every day, a different deity.

[dindin.livejournal.com]

Heh. I'd be perfectly content to take it back to pre-195whatever version.

[erinlin.livejournal.com]

I'm Canadian, and in school they played the national anthem every morning. I remember in about grade five we talked about what the song meant and the history of it and everything.

[finmagik.livejournal.com]

I said it every day. I don't know why though.

[ajodasso.livejournal.com]

I mean, I like my country. I grew up here. I like that I can complain about the president without worrying that someone is going to break down my door.*** But I feel uncomfortable pledging my allegiance to it, because currently I'm not all that crazy about the direction the country is headed.

Agreed. I stopped standing/saying the pledge somewhere very late in high school; you do sort of get odd/dirty looks for it, but it wasn't as if they could do anything to me. I remember that there was a young man in my sixth grade class who was a Jehovah's Witness, and therefore didn't stand to say the pledge. It always struck me, and it was one of the first things to lead me down my own path of questioning the pledge in my late teenage years.

[cupati.livejournal.com]

*blinks* *blinks again* *waves* Small internet, innit?

[ajodasso.livejournal.com]

Ahahah wow. Yes. Yes, it is!

[zambonigirl.livejournal.com]

I don't know why people are big on the pledge of allegience. I really don't. I also don't understand why Christian groups are so big on us saying "Under God", and I'm a Christian myself. I think that we should take pride in our national colors, just as every nation does, but for the most part, I'd say that our soldiers would be the ones pledging allegience to the flag. They're the ones that protect our right to fly it. They're the ones who die under it. I take pride in my country, and I feel an allegiance to our constitution, but I'm not going to worship the flag, nor am I going to ever think that the laws are good enough just as they are.

The national anthem is not something that I think either way about. It's a great song, I love the tune, I hate it when the singers at the ball game drag out "the land of the freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" part, but it's all good.

If you ever get a chance to get your hands on a Stan Freberg album, he does this parody of the founding of the US, and the scene about the flag is especially funny. George Washington goes to Betsy Ross for his "Spiffy blue blazer with antique military buttons and lace on the sleeves. Or should it have been brocade? Do you think the lace is too much?" and spends forever going over his blazer. Betsy's begging him to look at the flag, so he's finally all, "Oh, all right, all right! What? Stars? With Stripes?! I specifically said polka dots. How does that work, design-wise?"

And Thomas Jefferson trying to talk Ben Franklin into signing the declaration of independence is just classic-complete with a duet!

[sixth-light.livejournal.com]

In New Zealand, the national anthem shows up at the beginning of international rugby matches and...um, maybe rugby league? Very possibly netball? Almost certainly not soccer or cricket.

Basically, it's very selective. We don't sing it in school, except at the end-of-year prizegiving service, we don't fly the flag, and any attempt at a pledge of allegiance would be ignored or laughed at by a majority of students, as well as being seen as a dangerous fascist move on the part of whoever introduced it. We like to barrack for our sports teams here, and anything that involves our government telling the American government where to get off, but actual patriotism expressed on a daily basis is seen as extremely kooky. It's hard to explain how disturbing I find American practices like hanging the flag on your house or the Pledge, but...suffice it to say it's really disturbing.

[sphinxvictorian.livejournal.com]

First off, Eddie Izzard is brilliant!!

Secondly, yeah, there is a certain sense of programming to any show of mass patriotism. But if it's blind patriotism, then it's dangerous. If it's not blind and is well thought out, then it has some value. Unfortunately, it's so often the former, because if we really examine what our governments do in the name of patriotism, we would all start a revolution! ;)

I personally think that when if I were to say the Pledge of Allegiance now, which I don't really have any occasion to, I would have to mean every single word. I have to say I don't particularly care for the military content of our national anthem, preferring America the Beautiful, with its descriptions of our natural beauties and brotherhood and grace. The God stuff I can take or leave, but I do love this country, or I wouldn't still be here, believe me! There have been times...but anyway, you get the idea.

[crossbow1.livejournal.com]

I haven't had to say the pledge since... man. At least since fifth grade. After that I went to parochial school, where we didn't say it because the church leaders were a pack of radicals, and then in high school it wasn't said for I don't know what reason. Oh, we sometimes said it in Girl Scouts for flag ceremonies, but that was always voluntary because our Girl Scout leaders were a pack of radicals.

I did know what all the words meant, though. I made sure I did even in kindergarten, because I never, ever, EVER used words I didn't understand, which led to my teachers always thinking I had this great vocabulary because I never misused words. My father must have scolded me about it once too often. Or possibly it was the fact that he read to us from dictionaries for bedtime stories. Either way, I'm pretty sure it was his fault.

OK, more than you wanted to know. Sorry.

[snarkypants.livejournal.com]

How about these apples:

After saying the Pledge of Allegiance, my daughter and her schoolmates remain standing to pledge allegiance to Texas.

I sh*t you not.

They try to make the adults do it at PTA meetings, and I'm pretty much the only one who clams up and sits down.

I expect crosses to be burning on my lawn someday.

[hihankara.livejournal.com]

I always just mouthed the pledge, because it offended me that in school I had to say "under God." Cuz it felt like lying for me.